How American conservatives turned against the vaccine

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Published by Scotties Playtime

I am an older gay guy in a long-term wonderful relationship. My spouse and I are in our 36th year together. I love politics and news. I enjoy civil discussions and have no taboo subjects. My pronouns are he / him / his and my email is Scottiestoybox@gmail.com

71 thoughts on “How American conservatives turned against the vaccine”

  1. Scottie, I will freely admit to being finicky in terms of my thinking on this issue. On the one hand, I believe in the right to fully-informed consent and freedom of choice. To address the other hand, I believe that people should leave each other alone. While there are people who have some misguided inclinations on the matter of vaccines, I believe that even those who express what they see as legitimate concerns deserve to be given a voice.

    There are multiple options out there that I am aware of. While I do not have a fear of needles, I am of the belief that the rollout was too soon. Robert W. Malone, the inventor of the technology on which the Covid vaccines are based indicated that there were significant problems with the technology. Here is one video where he hexplains the problem with the Mrna technology, something on which the Covid vaccines are based: https://www.brighteon.com/5fca0e26-7212-4ab3-bc82-e4be32146445 Personally, I would take him more seriously than people who say that the Covid so-called vaccines are safe and effective without proof.

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    1. Hi Ragnarsbhut. Good to hear from you again. Please read this.

      Messenger RNA, or mRNA, was discovered in the early 1960s; research into how mRNA could be delivered into cells was developed in the 1970s. The biggest challenge was that mRNA would be taken up by the body and quickly degraded before it could “deliver” its message—the RNA transcript—and be read into proteins in the cells.

      The solution to this problem came from advances in nanotechnology: the development of fatty droplets (lipid nanoparticles) that wrapped the mRNA like a bubble, which allowed entry into the cells. Once inside the cell, the mRNA message could be translated into proteins, like the spike protein of SARS-CoV-2, and the immune system would then be primed to recognize the foreign protein.

      https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2021/the-long-history-of-mrna-vaccines

      What you have to understand is this is not new tech or a new medical development. There was not just one inventor. This was something worked for 6 decades. By 2020 it was ready to be used. How do we know?
      Look at the covid death toll in blue states that pushed the vaccine compared to red states that fought it. Post-vaccine, death rates in red states were 38% higher than in blue states. From https://abcnews.go.com/Health/red-blue-america-glaring-divide-covid-19-death/story?id=83649085

      From NPR on MAY 16, 2022. As the U.S. nears one million deaths from COVID-19, analysis finds nearly a third of those deaths could have been prevented — if people had been vaccinated. https://www.npr.org/2022/05/16/1099070400/how-vaccine-misinformation-made-the-covid-19-death-toll-worse

      This is verified data. The science worked. It has proven itself. The issues raised by Robert W. Malone and others were addressed. The drug companies did the studies and those studies were vetted. Almost all that came out against the covid vaccines were conspiracy theory garbage like people claiming VAERS proved the vaccine more deadly than covid. All that proved is they don’t know what VAERS is. An unverified website for people to make claims on. I could go on VAERS and say that my brother-in-law died a week after getting the vaccine. I left out the part he got hit by a bus. And people read that and go see the vaccine kills people.

      Here is the bottom line. Where you get your information from matters. You can not trust what you hear on Joe Rogan, I am constantly seeing him and his guests proven wrong. You don’t get medical advice from opinion hosts on TV cable networks. Get it from verified medical organizations, and people that reliably report what those medical organizations say. Fact. The majority of medical groups supported the vaccine. Groups include American Medical Association, American Nurses Association, American Academy of Pediatrics, Association of American Medical Colleges, and National Association for Home Care and Hospice https://www.aamc.org/news/press-releases/major-health-care-professional-organizations-call-covid-19-vaccine-mandates-all-health-workers
      If medical organizations want their own members vaccinated, it has to be a good thing. Over 50 major health care organizations call for mandating vaccines in their own industry. https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/50-major-health-care-organizations-call-mandating-vaccines/story?id=79070163

      Ragnarsbhut. As far as having their voices heard, the anti-vaccine people had their concerns broadcast on every right wing media outlet possible. Fox, Newsmax, The Daily Wire, and show hosts on these outlets shouted how bad the vaccines were. Yet history has proved them wrong. Like with the election coverage, they did it for ratings. Yes rating, not people’s health. People died needlessly because of those hosts wanting better ratings.

      When it comes to public health, the government is required to protect the people. In blue states they did, in red states they did not. Look at all the rules in society, in this country to protect the public. Everything from sewer wastes to dumping oil and paints in to the water we all drink. To require people to wear masks and observe distance is just another rule to protect the public and totally acceptable. In fact, it was once ruled by the SCOTUS that mandating vaccines in the public good is OK. The constitution requires the US government to protect the public. Hugs. Scottie

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        1. Hi Ragnarsbhut. Did you not read the reply? The majority of adverse reactions are crap self reporting that doesn’t stand up. Look at the data.

          Do you understand the concept of herd immunity? That is why we mandate vaccines, along with masks, and social distancing. Herd immunity is when those that can not have the vaccine due to health issues such as no immunity system are protected because everyone around them are vaccinated lower the chance the people who can’t have the vaccine are exposed.

          OK, let’s say you have a vaccine that saves 99 people out of 100 and protects society. 1 person has a side effect that is not life-threatening. (all the side effects railed against in real life are not life are not life-threatening, that is a true fact) But you have 5 people that can not take the vaccine. In that scenario all 100 people are protected, because the adverse effect was not life-threatening.

          Now 20 people out of that 100 refuse the vaccine due to the one non-life-threatening 1 person. That means 20 people that the 1 person is exposed could to exposed to that could give them the illness / life-threatening disease.

          But wait, people unwilling to accept science watch right wing hosts who to promote ratings for their shows push that the vaccines are dangerous or deadly. It is a lie, false, but it gets views. Those hosts demonize the CDC and the other medical people that spent their life helping the public. Those people watching now think the virus itself is deadly, so they don’t want it. Increase the non-vaccinated from 20 people to 35 people out of the 100. Still a minority, but it ruins any protection of herd immunity and protection of public health.

          See those 35 people now are not only contagious, the virus is mutating in them, which requires the medical community to create new antivirus boosters to protect the vaccinated public. The people that refuse the vaccine not only spread the virus but they allow it to mutate so it can again harm everyone else. Everyone of the 100 is now at danger of death again by that 35.

          That means the rest of the people are exposed to the new mutations and a bunch of them have no chance of surviving it.

          Now multiply those numbers by 336 million people in the US.

          That is the issue and problem. Ragnarsbhut I ask you if you can see it? Don’t you think people have an obligation in society? Don’t you think if someone could prevent your death with no or little harm to themselves, it is worth it?

          Ragnarsbhut. Tell me if you have read this far, both what you feel about the above. Then show me the verified adverse reactions to the vaccines. I don’t mean link to another video by a right wing media host. Show me a verified peer reviewed study by the medical community that shows the covid vaccines are deadly to some people.

          The very worse adverse reactions to the vaccines that is documented is an enlargement of the heart. That goes away after 36 hours. Guess what, far more everyday things you do right now in your life cause that same thing. Hell it happens and kills more people playing sports, especially kids.

          This is my friend is the truth. It is reality. Far too many people have let their emotions be stirred up by politics and fear. Right now, crippling diseases that were eradicated from the US in the 1960s are now surging through the US due to the anti-vaccine nonsense. That includes the measles and polio. That did not need to happen. We could have destroyed covid with the first vaccine in this country if people had taken the vaccine instead of a drug meant to remove parasites and been influenced by ratings chasing network hosts THAT WERE ALL VACCINATED THEMSELVES. Tucker, Hannity, the people at the Daily Wire, all the employees at Fox were vaccinated while pushing the idea that vaccines were dangerous and parasite removing paste was the cure.

          Hugs. Scottie

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          1. Scottie, I get all of that. I am also aware of the fact that there are anecdotal stories and that different people react differently. Personally, I believe that there should be freedom of choice and the opportunity to give fully-informed consent.

            Even if there are disagreements with a lot of them, I find the perspectives of Dr. Jane Ruby, Dr. Robert W. Malone, Dr. Simone Gold, Dr. Stella Immanuel, Dr. Pierre Kory, the late Dr. Rashid Buttar, the late Dr. Vladimir Zelenko, Dr. Joseph Ladapo, Dr. Joseph Mercola, Dr. Carrie Madej and Dr. Sherri Tenpenny to be interesting. While I believe that vaccines are a good thing, I have a hard time taking people seriously who jump on the safe and effective bandwagon and yet mocking people who express sincere and reasonable concerns about them.

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            1. Hi Ragnarsbhut. I have thought about not answering this because there is no way to do it without sounding insulting to either your intelligence or willing to do serious research. I don’t know all the doctors you mentioned but I seriously suggest you look them up and pay attention to how the rest of the medical community sees them. At least two of them I do know a bunch about and they are quacks and scammers. Seriously. I have done several posts on Dr. Joseph Ladapo, he has been creditable charged with altering official studies taking out anything that clearly shows he is wrong so he can keep pushing the anti-vaccine message. He is a grifting scammer who worked for frontline doctors under the leadership of one of the other doctors you listed, Dr. Stella Immanuel who is called the voodoo doctor because she believes that religion will solve / prevent diseases along with claiming that sex with demons causes gynecological issues. 

              Immanuel has also stated, among other things, that she attempts to remove spirits and demons from her patients, and has also stated that many gynecological diseases arise from “demon sperm” transmitted during sex dreams with supernatural beings. Additionally, Immanuel has stated that she believes in the existence of alien DNA within patients, and AFP has reported that she also thinks the United States is being run by “reptilians.”  

              Yes he followed this person. The scam was for a very high fee they would do a ten minute video call with a person and then prescribe them Ivermectin. If you are honest you know that is a scam because Ivermectin is a parasite remover and covid is a virus. Not the same at all. Ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine have been well studied and documented to have no benefit against covid and actually harmful in treatment. 

              That is a fact! If you don’t accept that you don’t accept the medical science that is well document and supported by every major medical organization worldwide. Back to Dr. Joseph Ladapo here is a few posts I have already done on him. https://scottiesplaytime.com/2023/04/25/florida-surgeon-general-altered-key-findings-in-study-on-covid-19-vaccine-safety/ . 

              https://scottiesplaytime.com/2022/02/04/new-allegations-plague-floridas-controversial-surgeon-general/ . 

              I am not going to do the work of looking up every doctor you mention. But if they are like the two I have looked into then you need to stop following them. They are not using accredited medical science and verified medical studies, and they are harmful to the wellbeing of the public. 

              Ragnarsbhut either you want the truth or not.  If you do you have to accept the vaccines both work and are not harmful.  Do people get sore arms or have a fever for a day after.   Sure it is normal.  Most don’t but some do.  But that is not life threatening like covid is.   Fact the vaccines on the market today don’t cause death.  Covid can and often does.   Hugs.  Scottie

               

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                  1. Scottie, you indicated that you were not inclined to look at all of the names of people that I mentioned. I never suggested that you do. All I am suggesting is that there be more out of the box thinking.

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                    1. Hi Ragnarsbhut. I see. First you wrote

                      I find the perspectives of Dr. Jane Ruby, Dr. Robert W. Malone, Dr. Simone Gold, Dr. Stella Immanuel, Dr. Pierre Kory, the late Dr. Rashid Buttar, the late Dr. Vladimir Zelenko, Dr. Joseph Ladapo, Dr. Joseph Mercola, Dr. Carrie Madej and Dr. Sherri Tenpenny to be interesting.

                      Then you wrote

                      I just detect some degree of confirmation-bias and by extension a slight communication failure here.

                      I am not sure if you understand what conformation bias means? If you had followed up what you wrote about finding their perspective interesting with but it is wrong and incorrect I would have agreed with you, while still pointing out how they were harming the rest of the country.

                      I can detail the many ways and I think I did, that trying to convince people to not get the virus is harmful to other people in the public, in the community. In that regard you do not have freedom of choice. In all aspects of community living people are required to follow the laws that promote the public good. Such as sewage regulations along with trash disposal, right down to having sex with consensual adult close members of a family. Adult brothers and sisters can’t legally do the wild fun thing.
                      Can’t get much more personal than who we are having sex with. And that is because what one person does affects the health and well-being of everyone. I can not pollute the drinking water of other people and the harmful run-off into the canals by putting banned chemicals on my lawn in Florida, because it harms everyone.

                      As to out of the box thinking. There is out of the pan and into the fire thinking as well. I have shown that two of the doctors you mentioned in that group are very wrong medically and ethnically. See if you have a group of ten people that claim the same thing agreeing with each and three of them are wearing Nazi uniforms and talking white supremacy shit, you have ten Nazis.

                      Also if you have 100% medical science and providers and 98% of them believe and demonstrate that a vaccine or treatment is the best needed practice, you have sufficient evidence to ignore the 2% as incorrect and wrong, therefor harmful. That is not conformation bias, that is understanding that those people in the field of study know far more and can understand far more than the lay person. To ignore the 98% and follow the advice of the 2% is not thinking out of the box, it is conspiracy theory quackery and delusional thinking. Hugs. Scottie

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                    2. Scottie, you implied that my sources are quacks. My word, not yours, however, you clearly indicate by your evident disdain for some the people whose names I mentioned that you think they are either wrong or are lying about what they claim.

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                    3. Hi Ragnarsbhut. Yes I did. I did it with intent. That is not confirmation bias, that is the truth. That is describing something the way it is. And yes, they are wrong and or lying to scam money. At least the ones in that group that I know about and I showed that to you.

                      It is not wrong or confirmation bias to say that people who promote flat earth as truth are wrong. It is a scientifically proven fact. It is not conformation bias to say that vaccines save lives and aside from minor temporary not deadly side effects are not harmful to people, it is a medical fact! It is not confirmation bias to say that people who claim medically disprovable facts are wrong. In the group of doctors you listed two are scammers and have replaced superstition with medical fact.

                      Do you now claim that those two are outliers and if I look up the others I will find real medical reasons that they dispute with facts what medical science has proven according to the other 98% of medical scientist?

                      Think about this Ragnarsbhut, if the ideas of these people and their proof was that good, why don’t more medical scientist, medical researchers, medical organizations, and medical providers agree with them? That is the real question to ask yourself. When it gets down to brass tacks as the saying goes, we lay people are unable to read the studies correctly, we lay non-medically trained people are not able to understand the medical science and data. We MUST depend on the experts. 98% of the medical experts agree that these vaccines are safe and effective. The fact 2% (which I doubt it really is that high) don’t but instead sell products which have been shown not to help but to add more harm, is proof they are not serious medical providers, but scammers out to make a quick profit. That is the truth of it. Anything else is self-delusion. The question then is why a person wants to be deluded? Hugs. Scottie

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                    4. Scottie, I agree with you. I just have a hard time taking people seriously who are on mainstream media who act like adverse events don’t happen because they have not experienced them directly.

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              2. Also Ragnarsbhut, the vaccines do not leave lifetime consequences like long term covid does. That is a medical fact. The way they are designed, they can’t. But long term covid has been proven and some of the consequences are horrifying. Hugs. Scottie

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  2. Hi Scottie and Ragnarsbhut; I have looked at this numerous times today because I find your position, Ragnarsbhut, frustrating. See, on one hand, I appreciate the examination of the dissenters, but there is a real political aspect to this issue. The anti-vax issue grew out of ignoring common medical opinion to place undo importance on the opinions and misinterpreted writings of those who focus on insignificant anecdotal evidence to meet an already biased hypothesis (those last two words are key). 

     The reason for anecdotal evidence in a scientific setting is to highlight when standard methodology does not meet the needs for certain circumstances. What is different with this situation? It is standard, and allows the scientist to adapt and even predict how things can change. 

     The unfortunate way that the dissenting observations and opinions have been used is to create name recognition for the dissenter, and we all know how that flows. While the scientists struggling to find the correct procedure to fight the virus labor in the background, wannabe’s thrust themselves into the ‘if it bleeds it leads’ news cycle damn the consequences, to create panic in an already tense situation. The result is a bunch of Dr. Oz types who are more interested in slinging snake oil to folks with a complete lack of memory than any actual concern for health.

     I applaud looking carefully at the application of medical actions that seem to be the ultimate cure for anything. But, sources are critical in such situations, and I don’t believe your sources of dissent amount to much.

    respectful hugs;

    randy 

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    1. Hello Randy. Thank you for this reply. You said it so much better than I can with this sentence. The anti-vax issue grew out of ignoring common medical opinion to place undo importance on the opinions and misinterpreted writings of those who focus on insignificant anecdotal evidence to meet an already biased hypothesis (those last two words are key). The situation has become that those wanting to make the most profit possible on those who deny the majority medical community and are already primed to be distrustful are using misinformation along with playing on emotions to do everything you said. Increase their name recognitions, gain profit, and also to make political advantage out of the situation. Hugs. Scottie

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  3. BLUNDERSONWORD, with all due respect, I search for what I feel is the truth about situations of this nature and go wherever it ultimately takes me. If I hear conflicting stories, I will take both at face value depending on the honesty of the people making those reports. Example: If one person got the Astrazeneca vaccine and had no ill-effects and another suffered persistent migraines, both deserve a fair hearing, regardless of the situation.

    Scottie, I was never anti-vaccine to any extreme. Due to my having epilepsy, the only vaccine I could never take safely was the pertussis vaccine for whooping cough. I also had whooping cough once early on and had acquired an immunity to it.

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    1. Hi Ragnarsbhut. First if you couldn’t safely have a vaccine then you understand how important it was for others around you to take it. Right? You were lucky, but many in your situation would have died. Again that is historical medical fact. But we need to talk about incidental reports and proven reports. You say you take them at face value. Which means you give both equal weight. That is the wrong way to look at it. You simply don’t have the education, the advanced medical degrees, the years of scientific study in the field to understand it like the professionals. Neither do I. Most people don’t. The right wing hosts that push the anti-vaccine anti-government stuff don’t. Know who does. Anthony Fauci, American immunologist and head of the U.S. National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. We have to stop saying we do our own research because we can’t read reports red medial reports, studies, or scientific papers. What we can do is read newspaper articles, and watch videos. So those who do not want to trust the government and want to think their own ideas / right wing media hosts are telling the truth get further from the truth as they go down the rabbit hole. They develop conspiracy ideas based on right wing media hosts who are fully vaccinated trying to make a profit from ratings. Those hosts lie to the people watching them to make money. They don’t care the deaths or harm they cause. No, we all need to listen to the majority of medical professional and those that spent decades in the field of protecting the public. Every credible study shows the vaccines safe and effective with no life-threatening aftereffects. So why the pushback, Ragnarsbhut? Thanks. Oh I just had a great idea. As this comment section is getting long and I really like to understand your thought process on this, would you like me to start a new post with just the question to you so you can comment and we all respond? I think it would be helpful so we all know where you are coming from. Plus it gets your ideas out there front and center. Hugs. Scottie

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      1. Scottie, it was the medical judgement of a health care provider at the time that it was unwise for me to get the pertussis vaccine for whooping cough due to my status as an epilepsy patient. While I agree with your sentiments, I am of the belief that vaccines should be both up to individual choice without coercion and also under the advice of a health care provider.

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        1. Hi Ragnarsbhut. Your idea that taking a vaccine should be an individual’s choice is wrong and leading to public health emergencies. https://www.joemygod.com/2024/02/florida-elementary-school-sees-measles-outbreak/ Diseases that once were killing kids and leaving family members crippled were wiped out. Not all kids could have the vaccines, but enough were required to be vaccinated to enter schools that herd immunity protected the others. Wiped out the problem. During a public health emergence like a pandemic where millions are getting sick, hospitals over run past the breaking point, and thousands dying per day then individual choice has no place for the public good, health, and welfare. Saving the lives of as many people as possible is the priority, not the personal feelings of a small minority of misinformed people with conspiracy ideas from listening to fully vaccinated right wing media hosts push fringe conspiracies for a political and financial profit. Hugs. Scottie

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          1. Scottie, my having epilepsy kept me from getting the pertussis vaccine for whooping cough. In that case, it was the judgement of my childhood neurologist that it was unwise to get it. I also had whooping cough once and never actually needed the vaccine anyway due to a built-in immunity.

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            1. Hi Ragnarsbhut. I understand it was from your doctor and his advice, and I agree you should listen to that.

              But you said something I would caution you on. You said you had it once so had immunity to it, so did not need the vaccine. That is not always true and is very inaccurate. For example, a virus that is mutating rabidly like Covid doesn’t give you the antibodies needed for the next mutation. You need a new stimulant for it on your immune system. That is why we have the boosters. It is also why we have yearly flu vaccines. Or if you are like me or people who get measles. Measles cancels out all prior immunity in your system. You start from zero again. Or if you have a system like mine. I will forever have to have allergy shots even though most people reach a state after a few years they can stop, their system has full immunity for the rest of their life. My system doesn’t work that way. It keeps resetting, and it wipes out prior exposure to a virus. It takes time and I can feel it when it happens as I start getting ill and sick over things I am allergic too. Plus, they can change in everyone. The point is, simply having something doesn’t give you full immunity to either the mutated version nor if your body forgets, like mine does. Please think on what I have said, and remember it is not just about you, it is about everyone you encounter every day. That person could be me. Do you want to be the one that makes me very ill when you could have had a simple non-harmful vaccine that would have protected us both? Hugs. Scottie

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              1. Scottie, to clarify, I whooping cough when I was much younger and it would have made the pertussis vaccine for that purpose unnecessary. I agree with your sentiments on a fundamental level.

                To address the different vaccines, I know all of the brands out there presently. For me, the issue is not fear of the Covid vaccines. I just hear a lot of conflicting information on the matter and believe that both sides, those who have favorable experiences and those who have adverse reactions, deserve to be heard. A few hypotheticals for you: 1: Someone gets the Astrazeneca vaccine as a single dose and appears to be perfectly fine. If that person got a subsequent dose and experienced ear ringing, migraines, an acute hypersensitivity to sound that otherwise did not exist.

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                1. Hello Ragnarsbhut. You talk about these adverse reactions that last a few days on the same level as the seriousness of covid.

                  There are no documented long term adverse effects from the vaccines. Verified after effects from the vaccines, boosters, all the shots last less than a week, most only two days. But the effects of covid are verified to last long after a person gets over the covid symptoms. Plus now we are just starting to get a handle on long term covid.

                  Let’s talk about the adverse reactions to the vaccines / boosters. I agree with you, they happen. Let me explain what happened to me, my husband Ron, and his sister. We all took the same brand of vaccine and boosters. Ron has never really had any reaction or adverse effect. I had one really sore arm for a day after one of the boosters. His sister has a bad reaction to all of them. Every shot she gets a fever, soreness, muscle ache, basically she feels like she has the flu … for two to three days. Is that bad yes, unpleasant yes. But it is not life-threatening, and it doesn’t last.

                  The reason people get a bad reaction is the vaccine / booster is doing its job, the more a person reacts shows the more the system of that person needs to ramp up to meet the threat. That is why some people react more than others.

                  Ron worked in the ICUs of a large hospital here where we live during covid. People with covid were dying horrible deaths. And they still are in the US a thousand people die a day from covid. It is heartbreaking because until they go sick most of these people thought covid was a hoax, a government scam, or just overhyped. They then want things that don’t work or beg for the vaccines. But the vaccines don’t help at that point.

                  Covid symptoms can last months after you have the virus, that is verified. That includes being very tired and lethargic, not being able to taste or smell things, shortness of breath, other things like that. Long term covid is when the symptoms simply last for years.

                  The adverse effects from the shots do not last more than a week! The effects from having covid can and do. That is verified medical studies. That is why it is important to get your information from proper authorities and not from right wing media hosts who have ratings to maintain.

                  I think I have answered all your questions and your hypothetical. Please think on them. You are influencing the people around you Ragnarsbhut, their lives could be adversely changed forever if you convince them not to get the vaccines and boosters. Hugs. Scottie

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                    1. Hi Ragnarsbhut. What you call a side issue and freedom of choice, is the choice to kill or make others suffer lifelong injury / illness for your own privilege. Is that the freedom you seek. Is that not selfish?

                      The people who can not take the measles vaccines as children can not go to school in some places because of measles outbreaks caused by parents unwilling to vaccinate the kids who could take it. What about the freedom of the kids who couldn’t take it? Their rights to education. What about the teachers and staff who couldn’t have it, do they have to lose their job and livelihood so that a few can enjoy the benefits of society without sharing the responsibility.

                      If you live in a society, you accept responsibility towards others, which includes sacrificing some freedom of personal choice to protect the lives of all. It is called community living. If you don’t want that responsibly remove your self from society, stay at home, don’t go to public places, don’t use public schools, don’t put others at risk for your unfounded fears. Hugs. Scottie

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                    2. Scottie, for me, the only vaccine I could not take due to my having epilepsy is the pertussis vaccine. In that case, it probably would have been life altering or worse. Even if there were no risks, I would prefer to not play the medical equivalent of Russian Roulette with my health by getting something that could do more harm than good. Just my thoughts.

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    1. Hi Ragnarsbhut. I am sorry, I saw the first comment because I take them in order of oldest first. But friend, I really wanted to answer the questions you asked, I feel they were important and should be addressed. So I did.

      You may have found the answers else where but maybe something I wrote could help you talk to others around you about it.

      Also there are always people who read the comments and absorb the information that never comment. They might be able to use that information also.

      Best wishes. Hugs. Scottie

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        1. Hi Ragnarsbhut. Thank you. I do try to be.
          On a lot of topics I can be very reasonable as long as the person I am talking with is being honest and honestly looking for answers. If a person is being a hateful bigot or racists, I don’t tolerate that. I won’t compromise on human civil rights.

          But if a person has questions, maybe is misinformed or looking for information, or has a difference of opinion that doesn’t threaten anyone else, I want to as reasonable as possible. The difference is if what the person believes or does is harmful to others, then I do care greatly.

          I am sorry others may not have seemed as reasonable. It is hard to talk with someone if you think they are deliberately misrepresenting or distorting medical facts. If a person is denying reality, it is hard to be reasonable with them.

          But you don’t come across that way to me, I think you got some bad information and were swayed to think that freedom means you have the right to harm others. I think you are looking for the correct medical information and looking for the best way forward. I hope I have helps show you the correct information and that living as a community means protecting each other. Hugs. Scottie

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          1. Scottie, I see we are on the same page. You mentioned getting the Covid vaccine. Moderna, if I remember correctly? While I believe that these should be left to individual choice, the only issue for me is this media drum beat of get the vaccine.

            I am aware of the difference between anecdotal evidence and concrete evidence regarding potential injury reports from any vaccine or medicine. For those that are under the status of Emergency Use Authorization, those should be administered only in hospitals or medical offices, not a local pharmacy.

            To address this from a real but rare scenario in relation to the Covid vaccines, if someone had one dose of one of them and had no real issues except for a headache or altered sense of taste and smell and those were clearly specified, I would not have an issue with those warnings if they were specifically listed. If another person got all recommended doses and had no issues at all, I would be glad to know that they were fine.

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            1. Hi Ragnarsbhut. In an emergency situation an emergency use authorization is warranted. It doesn’t mean that the vaccine has not been tested, that trials have not been held. It means that trials have been shortened by 4 months, but the vaccine has been shown not to cause death or injury and still is effective against the virus. I will put the difference below for you. If the vaccine is given in a government approved facility it doesn’t need to be a hospital, being in the hospital wouldn’t make sense, wouldn’t do any good, and would be a hardship for many people, and would further stress hospitals that if you remember were already far overwhelmed past the breaking point. As long as the people giving the shots have the proper training and credentials such as nurses or pharmacy personal and proper medical procedures are followed. I get most of my shots at clinics or pharmacies. As for symptoms, they were put out there. But the issue was getting through the disinformation pushed by right wing media. Hugs. Scottie

              Amid the myriad paperwork/administrative differences between the two options (more detail below), there are two standout differences—and they have nothing to do with the scientific rigor of the trials. 

              1. For an EUA for a COVID-19 vaccine, for example, the FDA requires that at least half of the clinical trial participants be followed for at least two months after vaccination. For full FDA approval of a COVID-19 vaccine, participants are followed for at least six months. 
              2. The full approval requires more data about the vaccine-maker’s processes and facilities, including inspections of manufacturing plants.   https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/what-does-eua-mean

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              1. Scottie, if you will indulge me, I would like to know your thoughts on the possibility that adverse events can happen and who should bear the greatest liability for the risk of injury. Example: If someone had acute migraine headaches after a shot and a booster and another person had the same vaccine and did not at all, what could be the most logical explanation for either situation from your way of thinking?

                Liked by 1 person

                1. Hi Ragnarsbhut. As I have said adverse events are short-lived and not fatal, on the other hand covid can be both long term and deadly. The reason some people have more adverse reactions is due to their bodies needing to do more work to prepare the antibody protection. The body reactions of fever, swellings, and other things are signs of the body working hard to deal with the threat it senses, which is the way a vaccine is supposed to work. As for the question of who should bear the greatest liability for the risk of injury. Again I think you are way over estimating the risk of injury, either temporary or permanent. The vaccines are used worldwide and their use continues to this day. If the vaccines were as dangerous or caused as much risk as right wing media claims the drug companies would have been shut down long ago. No government would allow that risk to the public if it was as great as the hype as been made to be. 

                  I wanted to be as accurate as I could in my reply. I googled how many verified deaths from covid vaccine. I couldn’t find any. I did find a bunch of pages that debunked the idea of death from the vaccine. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2022/01/05/fact-check-1-million-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-events-unverified/9103381002/ or https://www.newsweek.com/covid-vaccine-deaths-cause-pfizer-moderna-fact-check-966-died-1574447  There are a lot more like that you can look up your self if you want. 

                  So I can’t answer your question friend. Temporary discomfort or feeling ill is really just the vaccine working for you. As I told you, Ron had no reaction to the vaccine / boosters, I had soreness in my arm from one booster, and Ron’s sister had a few days of fever, feeling sick and shitty. Hope this answers your question. Hugs Scottie

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                  1. Scottie, I am all in favor of people getting the Covid vaccine if they want. What makes me mad about the whole thing is the mainstream media going on and on about the matter instead of just letting the matter be.

                    From the research I have done, most “Covid” diagnoses seem to be based on a fraudulent PCR test and even according to the CDC website, “Covid” symptoms are akin to common flu. Normal testing that shows no “Covid” and PCR tests that cause a supposed increase in cases cause me to think the results are tampered with.

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                    1. Hello Ragnarsbhut. This is a weird turn to the people have a right to chose discussion we were having but I will reply to it. The mainstream media goes on about it because it saves lives, and mostly to counter the misinformation / disinformation of the right.

                      Your research is faulty due to your sources. That is the key to being able to make reasonable judgements. You told me you prefer videos and even sent me a list several times to them, they are all right wing hosts who originally denied covid and then constantly downplayed it due to political concerns, not medical information, medical data, or medical studies. Yet remember that even as these people were telling their followers to not take the vaccine they were all vaccinated. The reverse of what you said is the truth. False positives are rare and false negatives far more likely. Plus the CDEC did not say what you were told, again you need better places to get information. But first let’s deal with real facts, hospitalizations and deaths from Covid, verified covid caused hospitalizations and death.

                      I don’t know where you live but google covid deaths per week for your state. These facts are just for one week, the last week. In Florida deaths from covid are up 3.2%. In the country as a whole, hospitalization for covid were 6,834,006. Yes verified covid hospitalizations are well over 6 million. Deaths are 1,180,042, yes in the last week alone over a million people died from covid. Hospitals don’t use home tests and the tests hospitals use for covid testing is not fraudulent PCR tests.

                      Now that we have the important data stated, let’s answer the real question you asked. You have again been misinformed about how many fake test kits and testing centers there are. Yes you again listened to the wrong sources and no the CDC did not say most covid diagnoses are wrong. You really need better places to get your information.

                      First lets deal with false positives.

                      It was possible — albeit rare — for people not infected with SARS-CoV-2 to have persistent false positive rapid antigen COVID-19 tests, longitudinal data showed.

                      Among a large cohort of over 11,000 people, 1.7% had at least one false-positive COVID-19 rapid antigen test despite concurrent negative molecular tests, according to a brief report in the New England Journal of Medicine “It is important to note that this is an extremely rare phenomenon — in our report about 2% of participants tested [falsely] positive,” Soni commented to MedPage Today in an email. “That is a similar false-positive rate reported for most antigen tests.”

                      How ragnarsbhut the reverse is much more likely to happen. False negatives.

                      False negative results are known to occur fairly frequently with rapid antigen COVID-19 tests and, to a lesser extent, with the more accurate RT-PCR tests. False positives are thought to be much less common.

                      https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/108837 Notice the date of this report. February 21, 2024 Also there is this from the New England Journal of Medicine.

                      The percentage of rapid antigen tests with false positive results is reported to be less than 1%.

                      Again the date on the report recent. February 22, 2024 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2313517

                      Now to the CDC and lies told by right wing influencers.

                      But the CDC did not say it was no longer supporting the use of PCR tests in general, many of which have been authorized by the FDA or that its original PCR test for SARS-CoV-2 can’t tell the difference between coronavirus and influenza — as viral posts spreading online falsely claim.

                      “After 180 million positive cases, the CDC have announced their withdrawal statement from using the PCR test to detect Covid, due to its lack of detection to differentiate between Covid and Influenza,” read a July 25 tweet screenshot posted to Instagram. The post received more than 4,000 likes.

                      A July 26 Facebook post similarly claimed: “Big News-CDC withdraws PCR test from FDA EUA. It’s inability to differentiate Covid from Influenza was #1 reason.”

                      The CDC’s PCR test in question looks only for SARS-CoV-2, not influenza — which is quite different from a test that mistakenly diagnoses influenza cases as COVID-19, as the posts erroneously suggest.

                      Other posts have falsely claimed it was the FDA that made the purported revelation about the CDC’s PCR test, or PCR tests in general. A since-deleted July 23 tweet from “UK Medical Freedom” falsely claimed that the “FDA announced today that the CDC PCR test for COVID-19 has failed its full review. Emergency Use Authorization has been REVOKED.”

                      Two days later, on July 25, a controversial gym owner in New Jersey, Ian Smith, falsely claimed in a viral tweet that the “FDA confirms PCR tests not accurate for testing COVID.” He referred to COVID-19 as a “Manufactured crisis.”

                      As we said, the announcement in question came from the CDC and was about plans for the eventual discontinuation of its own test. It is still in use currently. The FDA did not revoke the CDC test’s emergency use authorization or question the reliability of PCR tests, an FDA spokesman confirmed to us.

                      Scientists consider PCR tests a reliable and highly specific diagnostic tool, as we’ve explained before, but distortions about them have persisted amid the COVID-19 pandemic.

                      In explaining the CDC’s decision to end the use of its own PCR test at the end of 2021, Kristen Nordlund, an agency spokeswoman, in an email to us cited “the availability of commercial options for clinical diagnosis of SARS-CoV-2 infection, including multiplexed (discussedhere) and high-throughput options” — referring to technologies that use an automated process to administer hundreds of tests per day.

                      “Although the CDC 2019 Novel Coronavirus (2019 nCoV) Real-Time RT-PCR Diagnostic Panel met an important unmet need when it was developed and deployed and has not demonstrated any performance issues, the demand for this test has declined with the emergence of other higher-throughput and multiplexed assays,” Nordlund said.

                      She continued: “CDC is encouraging public health laboratories (PHL) to adopt the CDC Influenza SARS-CoV-2 (Flu SC2) Multiplex Assay to enable continued surveillance for both influenza and SARS-CoV-2, which will save both time and resources for PHL.”

                      https://www.tucsonsentinel.com/nationworld/report/072721_cdc_pcr_factcheck/viral-posts-misrepresent-cdc-announcement-covid-19-pcr-test/

                      Hugs. Scottie

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                    2. Scottie, if you are familiar with the late Kary Mullis, his creation of the PCR test was used as a form of diagnostic for “Covid,” something it was never intended for, however, it has been used for that purpose. According to the CDC website, many symptoms of “Covid” are similar to common flu. Personally, I think that it was talked about as a scare tactic to incite panic.

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                    3. Hello Ragnarsbhut. Do you read what I reply to you, or do you just want to argue from a preconceived point of view you have?

                      I just showed you the New England Journal of Medicine, one of the most premiere medical journals verified that the false positives were less than 1%. What do you want, the Daily Wire, Tucker Carlson, Fox host Hannity to admit they were wrong? This is the difference between science, and media hosts who are paid fucking millions to push something for advertisers to get views. It is not pretty but that is the truth.

                      Jesus fucking Christ man! The worldwide damn death toll from covid is not a scare tactic. Get your head out of the right wing media to see the rest of the world. These were real people dying! There were 1,180,042 people who died in the US last week alone from covid! I showed you how to get a state by state level count of covid deaths and even county level death toll if you wanted.

                      Even if I grant you that covid and the flu symptoms start as the same, and they are not. Tell me when was the last time you heard of a flu taking your sense of taste away, or your sense of smell. See who ever is telling you this bullshit is lying to you and quite frankly I am getting tired of you repeating it here.

                      The flu is something you can get over in at most 10 days. Covid effects can at last per last known studies …. a lifetime!

                      But you say the symptoms are the same …how to tell. Here is how. Google it.

                      How do I know if I have COVID-19 or flu?
                      Both the flu and COVID-19 cause a cough and shortness of breath, but overall, COVID-19 symptoms tend to last longer than the flu. Medical experts say COVID-19 symptoms may last for several weeks if not months. Shortness of breath can also come later with COVID-19 and becomes more severe and long-lasting than the flu.

                      But dear friend if you are not sure what you have see your doctor, they have tests, not simple home kits.

                      Back to your idea it was a scare tactic to what end? Tank the presidency of a republican president? This was a worldwide fucking pandemic!!!! That is what the word means. People were dying world fucking wide.

                      If you think my response is harsh it is because what you wrote is so clueless it needs to be responded to that way. This was not a US only problem. It hit the entire world, and yes before you spout another right wing talking point it hit China as hard as the US. It caused death, destruction, and ruined the economies of countries world fucking wide. That is not a scare tactic!

                      Want to know something, we will have more of these and some much worse because of the vaccine and medication denial that some groups push. It has been that way in history. A cure has been found and a group fearful or thinking that the science is against their religion has tried to deny it, stop it, or reject it. All that does is make the public much sicker and deadly for all. But what makes it worse now is right wing media pandering to people who can not understand this was not just happening in the US. So the next time fewer people will get the vaccines and a lot more will die. Hugs. Scottie

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                    4. Scottie, I have thoroughly read all of your replies. I have also watched videos that explain the true purpose of the PCR test, something that was clearly never meant to diagnose anything. Here is a video for you: https://www.brighteon.com/07bc874c-e527-4222-a323-e24387dd86b0 The PCR test is meant to be a method of analysis, not a diagnostic tool. All of the “Covid” deaths were probably judged as such before any blood screenings were done to provide concrete evidence to demonstrate the existence of this so-called virus.

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                    5. Ragnarsbhut. This is not meant to be insulting. But do you see the videos on the site you linked to? In the first three levels, I counted the majority of them that I personally knew were wrong. It is a fucking propaganda site, it is pushing far right bullshit that doesn’t stand up to science or fact!. That is the truth friend.

                      Either you want to be serious or you want to be in pretend land. I show you professional well respected medical journals that have been there for a long time. You give me right wing conspiracy videos from a far right website. The two are not equal. No way!

                      It makes me feel I am wasting my time with you. Seriously. I thought you really wanted the truth, the verified information. I spent my time looking it up for you. Do you?

                      Again, the data shows that less than 1% were false positives. That is a fact!. Now the other part of that was that the CDC recommends a newer test that is even more accurate.

                      Your news sources are desperate to keep you confused and feeling there is some deep conspiracy against you. Get real, you are not a kid thinking there is a monster in your closet. The government had no interest in keeping you in the dark and sick. Think about it! It crashed the economy, the world economy. The government wants you healthy and working.

                      As for your mistaken idea about covid deaths. My spouse worked in the ICU handling these covid patients, their covid diagnoses did not depend on a PCR test. What is wrong with your thinking.

                      Did hospitals all over the country stop knowing how to run blood tests? Do you get a yearly physical? Do you have blood tests? They normally run a CBC and a CMP along with lipid profiles. I get them every 3 months along with others. That shows everything from infection levels, platelet counts, red blood cell counts and so much more. None are PCR.

                      My point Ragnarsbhut is your sources you are listing to you are misinforming you and misdirecting you. A little hide the truth and a little see this stuff that doesn’t have anything to do with it. The effect is the same.

                      But even if you were right, in those old days which the test you say was used which was replaced in the early 2021, but say that test was bad. What about all the new covid cases and deaths since then?

                      Please use your head on this stuff. What you claim wouldn’t make sense in any way. Hospitals over run, people dying, still to this day. I showed you the death totals for just two weeks ago. Do you still think it was a bad test reading?

                      Lastly, think about what Covid did not just in killing hundreds of millions around the world. It not only caused massive death, but it also shut down countries, there are countries around the world still not recovered from it. The US did the best, we came back from the covid crash better than any country in the world, with less inflation and a surging economy. All to the steps taken by the Biden administration to stimulate the economy and get people vaccinated. Think about it, store workers had to go to work so to keep the stores open, and they couldn’t do that without the vaccine and other precautions.

                      Don’t buy into stupid stuff, you are better than that. Hugs. Scottie

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                    6. Scottie, if you will indulge me, I will address a few scenarios for you: 1: A person gets a diagnosis for Covid via a PCR test and tests positive due to a misuse of that test. 2: That same person asks for a blood analysis to check the possiblity of a viral agent and finds nothing. A test that finds a virus due to its being misused and a test that actually verifies its lack of existence due to a lack of existing infection indicates that the numbers are fudged.

                      Here is a situation that has some hyperbole: A person gets tested for Malaria in a place where it has high numbers of cases and is spared from it due to having natural immunity due to preexisting infection. That same person in another scenario gets tested for Malaria due to a faulty test that was never meant to diagnose it, i.e. the misuse of a PCR test. While this is highly unlikely, at least in this hypothetical, who or what is more at fault: The provider for misdiagnosing it or the mechanism for the test being used incorrectly and by default supposedly diagnosing something that the person never had to start with?

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  5. Scottie, I will acknowledge the possibility that some of the stories I have heard as it relates to potential vaccine injuries, even fatalities, are rare. Now, in my case due to my having epilepsy, the pertussis vaccine for whooping cough was one that I could not take because the risks at the time were judged as not being worth it. Now, if a medical care provider told me that it probably was not a necessity due to my living a healthy lifestyle, I probably would have declined. Assuming that I was told that it was recommended that I get it, however, it was entirely by my choice, I would look at the data and facts about all of them, including reports of adverse events, then making my own judgements.

    My having more libertarian inclinations leads me to think that government has no business imposing medical mandates upon anybody. There is also the issue of the Nuremberg Code. Nuremberg Code point #1 says, “The voluntary consent of the human subject is absolutely essential. This means that the person involved should have legal capacity to give consent; should be so situated as to be able to exercise free power of choice, without the intervention of any element of force, fraud, deceit, duress, overreaching, or other ulterior form of constraint or coercion; and should have sufficient knowledge and comprehension of the elements of the subject matter involved as to enable him to make an understanding and enlightened decision. This latter element requires that before the acceptance of an affirmative decision by the experimental subject there should be made known to him the nature, duration, and purpose of the experiment; the method and means by which it is to be conducted; all inconveniences and hazards reasonably to be expected; and the effects upon his health or person which may possibly come from his participation in the experiment. The duty and responsibility for ascertaining the quality of the consent rests upon each individual who initiates, directs, or engages in the experiment. It is a personal duty and responsibility which may not be delegated to another with impunity.” The constitutional right to free speech under the First Amendment also gives people the freedom to say no to medical mandates.

    Robert W. Malone, the inventor of the mRNA technology, indicated that the technology he created had not been adequately tested. People can try to fact-check him all they want, however, those sources are very likely to be propaganda. Here are videos of Robert W. Malone talking about this in his own words: 1: https://www.brighteon.com/5fca0e26-7212-4ab3-bc82-e4be32146445, 2: https://www.brighteon.com/0639ee21-9f09-464c-a935-23652523f695, 3: https://www.brighteon.com/893ae4b3-695b-4d7f-9613-4df779a4b8b0 Listen to the man, not people who claim that he never invented the technology, then decide for yourself based on his explanations.

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    1. Hey Ragnarsbhut. Back for another bite of the apple? The lifestyle argument is crap. Period. Yes some people push it but they don’t know what they are talking about. Viruses don’t care if you are thin, over weight, eat vegetables or not. I have seen teenagers sick and dying with covid, I have seen young athletic adults sick and dying with covid. Yes a person’s immunity system is important, and if a person has a bad immune system they would be more susceptible to getting the virus. But a person’s lifestyle don’t indicate their immune system strength at all. You can be the healthiest person on the planet and still spread the virus around. Even if you don’t get very sick yourself. With the vaccines the virus count in your breath is a lot less.

      Quit the crap OK. What is wrong with you trying to claim that the Nuremberg code covers vaccines and public health emergencies. The damn code was implemented due to Nazi experimentation on helpless Jewish prisoners. Here is the definition

      The Nuremberg Code is a set of ethical research principles for human experimentation created by the court in U.S. v Brandt, one of the Subsequent Nuremberg trials that were held after the Second World War.

      The code is ethics for medical experimentation. Period. Vaccines are not medical experiments! You may listen to right wing opinion hosts who convinced you to dislike the covid vaccine, but it was not medical experimentation. The vaccine was well researched and the vaccine is safe. Period.

      Now about being required to take vaccines. Public health is primary, period. You don’t have the right to get other people sick. Period. If you have a valid medical reason you can’t or shouldn’t take the vaccine that is excusable. But otherwise you need to be a part of the surrounding community, so have some responsibility to others and get vaccinated. If your job requires it, and you don’t want to take it, change jobs. If a school requires it and you don’t want your child to have it but have no valid medical excuse, then keep your kid at home. Right now measles are running wild in schools due to people not wanting to vaccinate their child because of stupidity. What about the damn kids and teachers that can’t have the vaccine for a valid medical reason? You
      do not have the right to endanger them.

      I already covered Robert W. Malone. He was fucking debunked as I showed you already. Again I ask do you bother to read the replies? Do you have trouble with memory retention? I am tired of repeating my self. Your sources lied to you. Period. Joe Rogan is not a credible source, he is a podcaster looking for ratings and money. His guests most of the time are spreading lies, just like Malone did. Now just stop the bullshit I am getting really tired of it.
      Hugs.
      Scottie
      https://www.businessinsider.com/experts-fact-check-vaccine-claims-by-robert-malone-rogan-podcast-2022-2?op=1
      https://factcheck.afp.com/http%253A%252F%252Fdoc.afp.com%252F9V36YN-1

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      1. Scottie, read Nuremberg Code point #1 in full. Any medicines or vaccines that are purely experimental, e.g. the Covid vaccines, should never have been made publicly available until the bugs had been worked on. Safe and effective? If that is true, that should be all the more reason to have lifted the EUA designation.

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        1. Ragnarsbhut. You are wrong! Look I have shown you over and over that the majority of the medical community verified the studies and tests of the vaccine. The majority agrees the vaccine is safe and effective. So stop this bullshit of bugs and experiment vaccine. The companies that developed it made sure it was safe because they did not want to have their asses sued off by people hurt by it and the government would not have approved it if they couldn’t prove it safe.

          I have already explained the EUA to you and why it was used. I will ask you to read https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/vaccines/emergency-use-authorization-vaccines-explained It explains to you in great detail how vaccines are developed and tested, what phase 1, phase 2, and phase 3 are. Again you have had a source twist the truth on you!

          The only thing that the EUA does is shorten the expected follow-up time to get the LIFESAVING vaccine to the people at risk of dying. All testing is still done and it has to pass. But they use a board of medical experts to go over the results and determine if more study or testing is needed. In this case it was not so they granted the EUA.

          However, efforts to speed vaccine development to address the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic have not sacrificed scientific standards, integrity of the vaccine review process, or safety. Recognizing the urgent need for safe and effective vaccines, FDA is utilizing its various authorities and expertise to facilitate the expeditious development and availability of vaccines that have met the agency’s rigorous and science-based standards for quality, safety, and effectiveness. Early in a public health crisis, FDA provides clear communication to the pharmaceutical industry pertaining to the scientific data and information needed to ensure development of vaccines and works quickly to provide advice on their proposed development plans and assessment of the data that are generated.

          As for the Nuremberg code. Again you have been misinformed. Have you read it! It doesn’t say anything about vaccines. Nothing! Stop listening to people lying to you damn it!

          Here is the history and the actual code!
          https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-nuremberg-code

          1. The voluntary consent of the human subject is absolutely essential.

          This means that the person involved should have legal capacity to give consent; should be so situated as to be able to exercise free power of choice, without the intervention of any element of force, fraud, deceit, duress, over-reaching, or other ulterior form of constraint or coercion; and should have sufficient knowledge and comprehension of the elements of the subject matter involved as to enable him to make an understanding and enlightened decision. This latter element requires that before the acceptance of an affirmative decision by the experimental subject there should be made known to him the nature, duration, and purpose of the experiment; the method and means by which it is to be conducted; all inconveniences and hazards reasonably to be expected; and the effects upon his health or person which may possibly come from his participation in the experiment.

          The duty and responsibility for ascertaining the quality of the consent rests upon each individual who initiates, directs or engages in the experiment. It is a personal duty and responsibility which may not be delegated to another with impunity.

          2. The experiment should be such as to yield fruitful results for the good of society, unprocurable by other methods or means of study, and not random and unnecessary in nature.

          3. The experiment should be so designed and based on the results of animal experimentation and a knowledge of the natural history of the disease or other problem under study that the anticipated results will justify the performance of the experiment.

          4. The experiment should be so conducted as to avoid all unnecessary physical and mental suffering and injury.

          5. No experiment should be conducted where there is an a priori reason to believe that death or disabling injury will occur; except, perhaps, in those experiments where the experimental physicians also serve as subjects.

          6. The degree of risk to be taken should never exceed that determined by the humanitarian importance of the problem to be solved by the experiment.

          7. Proper preparations should be made and adequate facilities provided to protect the experimental subject against even remote possibilities of injury, disability, or death.

          8. The experiment should be conducted only by scientifically qualified persons. The highest degree of skill and care should be required through all stages of the experiment of those who conduct or engage in the experiment.

          9. During the course of the experiment the human subject should be at liberty to bring the experiment to an end if he has reached the physical or mental state where continuation of the experiment seems to him to be impossible.

          10. During the course of the experiment the scientist in charge must be prepared to terminate the experiment at any stage, if he has probably cause to believe, in the exercise of the good faith, superior skill and careful judgment required of him that a continuation of the experiment is likely to result in injury, disability, or death to the experimental subject.

          You can also read this. Same information, just a different source. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Code

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            1. Hi Ragnarsbhut. Who told you that? It is totally false. All governments can run on their own laws and rules. The code is just that, a code of ethics. It has no binding at all. Every profession has a code of ethics that bind those that belong to it.

              By my dogs that love gravy ragnarsbhut will you give up this absurd conspiracy theory and stop listing to people who are lying to you! Or at least learn to search for stuff before replying. It is getting tiresome and rather repetitive. You could have searched “Is the Nuremberg code binding on countries” to see that what you said is a lie.

              Start doing something to educate yourself PLEASE

              Here is the deal. Do you want the truth! If so you on the computer and listening watching TV can not in any way evaluate the medical data. You don’t have the education to do so. Neither do the hosts on opinion shows you listen to. The medical doctors and professionals in the government do. They are not the enemy nor are they there to hurt you.

              The science is in and the majority of all medical providers accept it. The vaccines are safe and effective! That is the truth, end of story. Accept it, or deny it and prove your ignorance. But I am done trying to spoon feed you the truth. You have been lied too. Sorry I don’t like it either, but that is a fact.

              So stop embarrassing yourself and wasting my time. In case you have not noticed this is my way of saying I am done trying to help you on this. You don’t want help. You seem to want to wallow in long debunked conspiracies driven by political needs and the desire for ratings / clicks.
              Hugs. Scottie

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              1. Scottie, the detail is also clear that the pertussis vaccine for whooping cough, to name one example, is unsafe for people with epilepsy. If I was mandated by my government to take a vaccine that would be fatal due to a preexisting health condition, how can I protect even myself if I can’t live to tell about it? Hyperbole, yes, but the principle of the thing is the issue.

                Do you know the severity of the punishment for Nuremberg Code violation? When last I checked, the penalty was death. During any so-called pandemic prior to “Covid,” I do not recall ever reading history about government mandates in the USA.

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                1. Hey Ragnarsbhut. I am getting tired of bullshit. Seriously I am losing patience with your inability to see reason, comprehension troubles, and your stubborn refusal to accept that right wing media has lied to you. Last time then we are done.

                  We have already discussed that if you have a valid medical reason from a valid medical doctor you are exempt from any vaccine requirement. It has always been that way. So stop acting like you have not been told that over and over and over. It is in all the laws. But it has to be valid. Claiming your god says you don’t have to take it is not a valid medical reason. Saying you don’t like that vaccine because of political reasons is not a valid medical reason either. Don’t bring it up again. Learn to google. You claim to do your research then start doing some.

                  The reason Nazi doctors were put on trial for breaking the Nuremberg code was they were doing medical experiments on prisoners who had no say. Not volunteers who gave informed consent, but instead these were people given no choice and had horrible medical experiments done on them that they couldn’t avoid.

                  The vaccines are not medical experiments done on people! They are a well studied medication that is government approved. Period! Safe and effective. Given worldwide for four fucking years! Proven safe and effective! End of story!

                  The Nuremberg Code is an ethics code, not a law. It is not called the Nuremberg Law is it. The fact is the reason for the Nuremberg Trials was they were a defeated nation after a war, they were tried as war criminals. Learn some history will you. Germany did not use the code against the doctors and others, the Allied Nations did! You know, the countries that won the war. So stop this stupidity that the vaccines break the code and the penalty is death. We took the captured enemy bad people and put them on trial, then punished them.

                  Again google shit before writing to me. Here is one of the first things to come up. Read the entire article please not just what I copied for you. Do your own work for once!

                  https://fullfact.org/health/nuremberg-code-covid/

                  The Nuremberg Code and Covid-19 vaccines
                  We have seen several examples of posts on social media claiming that Covid-19 vaccines violate the Nuremberg Code because they are somehow “experimental” and, as people receiving the vaccines are not made aware of this, they are unable to give their informed consent.

                  This claim that the Covid-19 vaccines are experimental is simply not true, and something we have corrected multiple times. The three Covid vaccines currently given temporary authorization for use in the UK have been shown to be safe and effective in large scale clinical trials.

                  Dr Alexis Paton, lecturer in social epidemiology and the sociology of health at Aston University, Birmingham, told Full Fact that the Nuremberg Code is “very specifically about experimentation” and so although its principles would be applicable when discussing clinical vaccine trials, it is no longer relevant once a vaccine has been authorized.

                  She said: “The Nuremberg Code is about the active experimentation on humans, for the most part during some sort of clinical trial of some description. So when we talk about Pfizer or AstraZeneca [vaccines], we’re out of the auspices of the Nuremberg Code because this is a product that has been trialed, with appropriate ethics in place, and has been approved and is now in production and being used globally.”

                  Again ragnarsbhut. I think everything that needs to be said has been. The entire conspiracy around the vaccine falls apart when looked into. The conspiracy is wrong and stupid, it is getting people killed, and it is being fed to people like you by right wing media hosts using scammers. Both of them make money, increase ratings, get your clicks. Grow up, you’re too old for believing in fairy tales. Hugs. Scottie.

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                    3. Ok ragnarsbhut. You are even closer to making yourself sound even less relevant. It is the job of the speaker / writer to make sure the audience can understand the information conveyed, not the listener / reader. You speak / write to the level of your audience. You failed. Hugs. Scottie

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                2. Oh, I forgot to tell you when the SCOTUS ruled mandatory vaccines legal. Again google dude, seriously.

                  I understand a spotty education. But you can educate yourself. Read things other than listen to Joe Rogan, who is wrong most of the time, or let’s just say he is misinformed most of the time. Right wing media pushes a narrative, not the truth. So get off them and learn the truth. Also learn to google please. You claim to research to make your own decision, then do the research part.

                  In 1901 the smallpox epidemic. Read the article to educate your self not just what I copied for you.

                  https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/on-this-day-the-supreme-court-rules-on-vaccines-and-public-health

                  On February 20, 1905, the Supreme Court, by a 7-2 majority, said in Jacobson v. Massachusetts that the city of Cambridge, Massachusetts could fine residents who refused to receive smallpox injections. In 1901, a smallpox epidemic swept through the Northeast and Cambridge, and Massachusetts reacted by requiring all adults receive smallpox inoculations subject to a $5 fine. In 1902, Pastor Henning Jacobson, suggesting that he and his son both were injured by previous vaccines, refused to be vaccinated and to pay the fine. In state court, Jacobson argued the vaccine law violated the Massachusetts and federal constitutions. The state courts, including the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court, rejected his claims. Before the Supreme Court, Jacobson argued that, “compulsion to introduce disease into a healthy system is a violation of liberty.”

                  On February 20, 1905, the Supreme Court rejected Jacobson’s arguments. Justice John Marshall Harlan wrote about the police power of states to regulate for the protection of public health: “The good and welfare of the Commonwealth, of which the legislature is primarily the judge, is the basis on which the police power rests in Massachusetts,” Harlan said “upon the principle of self-defense, of paramount necessity, a community has the right to protect itself against an epidemic of disease which threatens the safety of its members.”

                  Hugs. Scottie

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                  1. Scottie, when every single politician who is willing to take so-called vaccines on live TV and show what all is in them, I might be willing to take them seriously. Of course, I listen to medical experts who are not bought and paid for by major pharmaceutical companies.

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                    1. Ragnarsbhut. You’re acting stupid again. Seriously dude, think about how dumb that sounds. Everyone who doesn’t believe like I do has been paid to not tell the truth, even though what I believe is a believed by a very small minority of people and people have been taking the vaccines worldwide without all the deaths my experts claimed. Doesn’t that sound really stupid to you? The people with your misinformed belief are a very small minority, and the world has been using the vaccines for four years without any large scale troubles.

                      What is in the vaccine is public knowledge. Look it up dude. Again do the research you claim you do. Stop being a jerk about this. The right wing media bubble you are in is poisoning your mind.

                      Pfizer-BioNTech’s vaccine contains:4

                      A nucleoside-modified messenger RNA (modRNA) encoding the viral spike glycoprotein of SARS-CoV-2
                      Lipids, or fatty substances, including: (4-hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis(2-hexyldecanoate), 2-[(polyethylene glycol)-2000]-N, N-ditetradecylacetamide, 1,2-distearoyl-snglycero-3-phosphocholine, and cholesterol
                      Potassium chloride
                      Monobasic potassium phosphate
                      Sodium chloride (salt)
                      Dibasic sodium phosphate dihydrate
                      Sucrose (sugar)

                      The Moderna vaccine contains similar ingredients such as:5

                      Messenger ribonucleic acid (mRNA) encoding the spike glycoprotein of SARS-CoV-2
                      Lipids, or fatty substances, including: SM(sphyngomyelin)-102, Polyethylene glycol [PEG] 2000 dimyristoyl glycerol [DMG], 1,2-distearoyl-sn-glycero-3-phosphocholine [DSPC], and cholesterol
                      Tromethamine
                      Tromethamine hydrochloride
                      Acetic acid
                      Sodium acetate
                      Sucrose (sugar)
                      “The vaccine primarily contains salts and stabilizers in the forms of sugars and lipids, which don’t cause allergic reactions,” Jain says.

                      Both vaccines are similar when it comes to ingredients. “The primary difference between the two is that the packaging of the RNA in the Moderna vaccine allows for storage in a regular freezer, compared to ultra-cold freezers required for the storage of the Pfizer vaccine,” Jain says.

                      So don’t tell me you listen to medical experts. I looked up the ones you mentioned to me. They all either were lying, were out of date with the technology developments, they misinformed, and they were proven wrong by the actual science. Those experts were platformed by your right wing media and we already talked about why. It was to get the clicks, views, clicks, and advertising money from the cult base. Plus at the same time they were telling you that the vaccines were bad they had company wide polices forcing employees to get the vaccine because they knew it was safe. At the same time Hannity, tucker, Ben Shapiro were telling you how bad it is, they were taking the vaccines because they knew it was safe. Hugs. Scottie

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                    2. Scottie, with all due respect, I listen to people who report what they see in medical practices first and foremost. All other people are taken with a grain of salt.

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                    5. Ragnarsbhut. I have presented you with facts and shown the sources. But you don’t want facts, truth, or reality. You glory in your silly conspiracies. You seem to feel empowered by them. But thinking the entire world is lying and over 13.75 billion doses have been taken of some deadly virus is plainly silly / stupid. And all the governments are just letting it happen. Most people would stop and think about that number, 13.75 billion doses from countries all over the world. For only 8 billion people.

                      I would tell you to open your eyes but it would be a waste of my time. You just love that feeling of being put on, fighting the evil government even though all governments are using vaccines / boosters, and you think you have secret knowledge like an uninformed 8 yr old.

                      So this is at an end. All future covid / vaccine comments from you will be deleted, so don’t waste your time. I have spent a lot of time working with you, doing the work you refuse to do. And you just spit at me.

                      Don’t bother to comment any more on covid or vaccines. Scottie

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  6. Scottie, the Nuremberg Code should apply to any form of experimentation on a human subject. This means that the person involved should have legal capacity to give consent; should be so situated as to be able to exercise free power of choice, without the intervention of any element of force, fraud, deceit, duress, overreaching, or other ulterior form of constraint or coercion; and should have sufficient knowledge and comprehension of the elements of the subject matter involved as to enable him to make an understanding and enlightened decision. The experiment should be so conducted as to avoid all unnecessary physical and mental suffering and injury. If the right to fully-informed consent is not respected, that is a violation of the Nuremberg Code, basic human rights and above all else, a violation of the right to bodily autonomy.

    For people with epilepsy, to name one condition, if there are experimental therapies that are out there that are supplementary to medications, there should be a right to fully-informed consent on the part of the patient about the benefits as well as the risks. Being mandated to recieve an experimental therapy that has not been tested adequately to verify safety and efficacy in such a scenario would violate Section 1 of the Nuremberg Code at the very least, as well as violating this idea of health care being a human right.

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        1. Hi Ragnarsbhut. If you believe that then you have a real issue with reading comprehension. I have posted to you the entire code. It applies to medical experimentation. Not approved vaccines. Read my replies and included examples again. Then remember it is a CODE not a LAW! Seriously you claimed to have done your own research and you missed that clear clue? I wonder at this point how I can help you if you are not even willing to do a small bit of the work yourself. Hugs. Scottie

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          1. Scottie, I have heard nurses in some videos refer to these “vaccines” as experimental. As long as they have the EUA designation and by default have legal protection from liability in the event of potential injury or death to the recipient, I am not going to risk injury or worse by trying to be a crowd pleaser in response to irrational fears about a so-called pandemic that is centered around something that even the CDC likens to regular flu. “Covid” has only been supposedly diagnosed with a device that is meant to be for dna analysis, not as a diagnostic tool. A PCR test being used to diagnose something when that was never its intended purpose causes me to think all of this stuff is baseless.

            The snake venom theory and 5G ideas as the source of this so-called pandemic makes more sense than this bat-derived virus narrative. Personally, I would not be surprised if the research being funded in Wuhan, China with NIH money was meant to create biological weapons that were meant to blow up in the face of the Chinese Communist Party and yet when things went bad, Dr. Anthony Fauci kept changing his story and never gave Donald J. Trump a straight answer.

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            1. Ragnarsbhut. I have explained what the EUA means and also that the drug has been certified by the US and governments all over the world. Besides the US is the only one that used that designation. It was used not to avoid testing and certifying the drug. It is used to go around long term tracking of testing subjects. To put in simple language. To get it to people who were dying by the millions worldwide a group of medical experts gather, go through all the testing data, the results, the medical data and decide if a 6 month follow up of test subjects is needed. These experts decided that the drug was safe and effective so should be used now. It doesn’t mean that the follow up was not done, it was. Plus the 6 months have long since passed by about 3 and a half years. So the EUA is long passed and no longer in effect. Plus it has nothing to do with liability. Just how soon a drug can be used on the public.

              See this is why I wonder if you really think on what you hear from these videos. Did you not look up what the EUA was, how it worked? I know you know now because I this is the second time I explained to you.

              But side note, many companies try to be limited liability. A lot of companies try to incorporate as limited liability corporations.

              You’re being stupid again. What is 5G. What do you think it means? Stop believing right wing media woo. 5G is not some mystery. It is simply the 5th generation of the technology used. Nothing more. It is using a slightly faster signal processing so your data can go fast from and too your device.

              As for the bat virus migration to humans, it is common, far more common than you seem to understand. Want an easy example to show how common it is? Ever hear of rabies? Yes that nasty horrible virus.

              Rabies virus, scientific name Rabies lyssavirus, is a neurotropic virus that causes rabies in animals, including humans. Rabies transmission can occur through the saliva of animals and less commonly through contact with human saliva. Rabies lyssavirus, like many rhabdoviruses, has an extremely wide host range.

              See how easy and common it is. There are thousands of these and more being discovered all the time. Think on why not cooking pork or chicken properly can make you sick. Because of illnesses, diseases, and viruses they tend to have.

              Dr Fauci was cleared of all that crap. I told you before I don’t want to hear that nonsense besmirching of a grand public servant. Don’t do it again or you won’t be able to comment here. Understand! He had no reason to lie, and did not lie as I have shown you. With his degrees and talent he could have made millions, been a multimillionaire in the private sector as a hospital administrator or other position. That he stayed in public service was a testament to his good character.

              Seriously do you not see how the right wing media bubble you live in has harmed your thinking. Do you not see that they filled your head with nonsense? Nonsense you never bothered to look up. Start as I am getting tired of trying to help you only for you to keep repeating nonsense. Hugs. Scottie

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              1. Scottie, regardless of status, designation if you will, any company that refuses to accept legal liability for any injury as a result of their products is one that I will limit giving my business to. Want to know who one of my sources is? Karen Kingston of Pfizer.

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                1. Oh ragnarsbhut. Again you accepted lies and misinformation spewed by right wing media. Just admit that you don’t look stuff up. I simply searched her name, only her name on Duck Duck Go.

                  She flat out lied. I will post the links from a few different websites, factual websites. First when was she employed at the company? 1996-1998. The pandemic was in 2020. Plus her job back then was non-scientific. She couldn’t know and had no way to know what was in the vaccine. She sold Viagra pills. If you read the articles you will see how badly she researched, why she was wrong, and that you were lied to. Again! Sad. Hugs. Scottie

                  https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/graphene-oxide-mrna-vaccines/

                  On July 28, 2021, internet personality Stew Peters landed what he described as an “exclusive” scoop: a video interview with what he billed as Pfizer insider Karen Kingston who, Peters claimed, produced “indisputable documentation” that proves mRNA COVID-19 vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna) contain a “poison” known as graphene oxide.

                  What do I keep telling you. Right wing media hosts want to inflame and keep the outrage going for political reasons, more viewership, higher ratings, and more advertising dollars.
                  From the same article.

                  Graphene oxide is not included in the ingredient lists of any filings for either the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines. Speaking to Reuters, Pfizer’s senior associate of global media relations said that, “Graphene oxide is not used in the manufacture of the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine.” Arguments suggesting that they do, therefore, rest on “independent research” that purports to have uncovered nefarious secrets by scouring the internet for hints. Kingston lays out her research process in the interview, which makes it easy to spot how and where she either distorts or misinterprets the information her argument rests on. The messenger RNA in COVID-19 vaccines is protected by a lipid nanoparticle layer that also allows it to enter the non-nuclear portion of a cell. The specific lipid formulations used by both Pfizer and Moderna differ, but both include at least one chemical classified as a PEGylated lipid. Such lipids have had a polymer named polyethylene glycol added to them.

                  Kingston’s argument rests on two deeply flawed assertions: that the only company in the world that produces PEGylated lipids is the Chinese company Sinopeg and that documentation on Sinopeg’s website proves that graphene oxide is present in their products. Neither assertion, however, bears any semblance to reality.

                  Also read from different sources.
                  https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL1N2PI2XH/

                  https://www.ibtimes.sg/fact-check-ex-staff-who-claimed-graphene-oxide-presence-vaccine-did-not-work-pfizer-59432

                  The Lead Stories reported on August 6 that Kingston is not a whistleblower per se as she did not, did not work on developing the COVID-19 vaccine at Pfizer.

                  https://leadstories.com/hoax-alert/2021/08/fact-check-vaccines-do-not-contain-graphene-oxide-as-claimed-by-ex-pfizer-employee.html

                  https://leadstories.com/hoax-alert/2021/08/fact-check-vaccines-do-not-contain-graphene-oxide-as-claimed-by-ex-pfizer-employee.html

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